TRANSCRIPT - ABC Afternoon Briefing with Greg Jennett

PAUL FLETCHER MP

Shadow Minister for Science and the Arts

Shadow Minister for Government Services and the Digital Economy

Manager of Opposition Business in the House

TRANSCRIPT

ABC Afternoon Briefing 

15 AUGUST 2024

Greg Jennett: Well straight from the House, Coalition frontbencher and Manager of Opposition Business there, Paul Fletcher, joins us in the studio now. Paul, welcome back. I think you just had the opportunity to hear some of what Abul Rizvi, a former immigration official, had to say. Can I get your response to his observation that it is unlikely any Hamas fighter operative or ideological adherent would have either applied or been granted a visa to Australia?

Paul Fletcher: Well, what we've been seeking to do in the Parliament today and yesterday is get the facts on this, rather than a set of generalised assurances. It's not entirely surprising that Mister Rizvi is running Labor's talking points, but we've been after the facts. And so, for example, we've been pressing the Prime Minister to understand in which circumstances have applicants for an Australian visa currently in the Gaza war zone, or having been in that zone, been required to go through an ASIO process?

And the Prime Minister, purported to quote the Director General of ASIO, saying of people in that situation: “if they've been issued a visa, they've gone through the process, they're referred to my organisation”, namely to ASIO, but in fact what Mister Burgess said was: “if they've been issued a visa, they've gone through the process, part of the process is where criteria are hit they are referred to my organisation”. 

So the Prime Minister gave a highly misleading version of Mister Burgess’ quote. And what we want to understand is, when are those criteria hit? That's why we've been asking questions about who's required to go to have their biometrics tested? When do people have a face-to-face interview? 

And we've been making the point that if you look at the rigorous process we went through with people who were brought to Australia out of the civil war in Syria, and we took a significant number of people on humanitarian grounds, but we made sure we went through a proper process.

Greg Jennet: Doesn't the high rejection rate, hovering as it is, around 70%, indicate that the criteria were hit many times such that rejections run very, very strongly indeed?

Paul Fletcher: I'm not sure we can make that assumption, which is why we've been asking questions about, have people who are applying for a visa been moved first to a third party country? That was the process that we went through with people who ultimately came to Australia from the civil war in Syria.

Have they had face to face interviews with Australian government officials? And we've not got assurances on that. That that has been the case for everybody who's come in. Has there been biometric testing? We've also asked, has the results of that testing been run against data from Israeli government security agencies? Because of course, if any government around the world would have accurate information about people who are Hamas supporters or sympathisers, it would be the Israeli government.

So, these are all things that we're suggesting that a responsible government would do. And let's remember, all of this was under the entirely incapable oversight of former minister Andrew Giles. So he's got a track record of dismal incompetence and worryingly, he was the one who was in control of this process.

Greg Jennett: I'm wondering what's triggered all of this interest since pretty much yesterday morning when Peter Dutton was in the aircraft hangar at Sydney airport welcoming home our triumphant Olympians. I mean, this visa data would have been largely available through estimates processes and other sources for months now. Why are you suddenly seized of this idea around a temporary ban on Palestinian visas?

Paul Fletcher: Well, we've been asking these questions based upon the deep experience that Peter Dutton himself has as a long serving Home Affairs Minister and then Defence Minister, and other senior Coalition parliamentarians who've been heavily involved in these issues when in government. And on the evidence available to us there are very good questions to ask about whether this government has been going through proper processes.

Greg Jennett: You're not just asking questions though, are you? You’re advancing a policy position which is that there should be a ban on visas.

Paul Fletcher: Peter Dutton has made it clear, as has James Patterson, our Shadow Home Affairs spokesman and other spokespeople for the Coalition, that in these circumstances we think there should be a pause, until we can be satisfied that the proper and rigorous processes are being followed. And the template for those is the set of processes we followed for example, in bringing people from a similar war zone, the civil war in Syria a few years ago where we had a significant humanitarian intake. 

Nobody's contesting the proposition that Australia should do its bit when there are civilians in danger and the Coalition has a substantial track record of doing that when in government, as we did with people from Syria but we did it in a careful way that properly balanced up the national security risks.

Greg Jennett: Just to kind of ground I suppose, the policy translation of these questions, if you were in government in the first or second quarter of next year, would you retrospectively cancel any visa approved, consistent with this temporary ban call by Peter Dutton?

Paul Fletcher: What we have been clear that we want to see is the evidence that the proper processes are being followed because there's every reason to suspect that this has not been managed properly. And one of the powerful pieces of evidence of that is the fact that it was in the hands of the former Immigration Minister Andrew Giles, so incompetent that his factional mate, Mister Albanese, ultimately had no option but to dump him.

Greg Jennett: Reshuffled yeah. Are you losing confidence in ASIO's performance?

Paul Fletcher: The issue is not the performance of our agencies. The Prime Minister's tried to divert onto that topic but if I go to that quote from Mister Burgess again, part of the process is “where criteria are hit they're referred to my organisation”. Now it's the government that determines those criteria.

The agencies ultimately respond to the directions that they are given by ministers and by the Prime Minister. So our question is, what are the rules of engagement as it were, that ASIO and other agencies are operating under?

Greg Jennett: Presumably they would be really fundamental things, wouldn't they? Like has the applicant maintained any known association with Hamas? Fought for them, advocated for them?

Paul Fletcher: We've been asking precisely a series of questions about those issues and the Prime Minister and the Minister for Immigration have refused to give adequate or comprehensive answers to these questions that we've been asking. And they’ve been unable to demonstrate to any objective observer that the rigorous processes that we followed, for example, in bringing in people on a humanitarian basis from the war zone, the civil war in Syria, that similar processes have been followed here. Things like moving people to third party countries, then conducting face-to-face interviews with Australian government officials and visa applicants in those countries.

Greg Jennett: Can you just explicitly state your own position? Do you support a temporary ban on visa issuing?

Paul Fletcher: Of course, I support the Coalition's position.

Greg Jennett: Okay, and the social cohesion question. Is this not arousing or fraying social cohesion?

Paul Fletcher: Social cohesion is enormously important. It's enormously important. And there is no doubt that our social cohesion has been under challenge. We’ve seen a rise of antisemitism from the outrageous and appalling behaviour that we saw on the Opera House forecourt on the 9th of October and we are certainly concerned about social cohesion, of course we are.

Greg Jennet: Couldn't this exacerbate?

Paul Fletcher: Well on the contrary. One of the critical considerations that needs to be brought to bear in making decisions on which visas ought to be granted, is to make sure that we are not bringing into the country people who are supporters of Hamas, which is a listed terrorist organisation.

And the underlying point here is that Hamas is in control of Gaza and so it absolutely puts the government on notice that it's appropriate to have careful and proper checks of anybody who is seeking to come to Australia.

Greg Jennett: So you didn't see any exhortation issued in the direction of political leaders by Mike Burgess when he said, just be careful with your language, because, again, inflamed language leads to violence.

Paul Fletcher:  What is very important is that we maintain tolerance and respect. Australia is the world's leading multicultural nation. Our tradition of mutual tolerance and respect for people who've come from all around the world is very strong and the Coalition absolutely backs and has consistently backed, bringing people from around the world.

And we respect enormously the contributions made by people who've come from around the world, including people who've come on humanitarian programs. And certainly, in my time as a minister, in relevant portfolios. I've met with many fine people, who've come through the humanitarian program and Peter Dutton has a strong track record in his time of bringing people in under those programs. The Coalition is absolutely committed to humanitarian programs and to a diverse Australia.

Greg Jennett: Well, you know we always appreciate it when you come on and answer our questions Paul Fletcher. We thank you for that once again at the end of a very busy sitting week. Thanks so much.

Paul Fletcher: Thanks Greg.